The Caine Mutiny

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to the MWI Book Club, a podcast from the Modern War Institute at West Point. I'm John Amble. [00:00:11] Speaker B: And I'm Theo Lipsky. [00:00:13] Speaker A: And the MWI Book Club is where we talk about books and the profession of arms. [00:00:17] Speaker B: Each episode features one book, fiction or non fiction, new or old, bestseller or cult classic, and we give it a close read to find lessons about war, about leadership, and about character. On this episode, the Cane Mutiny by Herman Woak. [00:00:36] Speaker A: Welcome to the inaugural episode of the MWI Book Club, a brand new podcast that we're launching. The idea behind the podcast is that frankly, reading and especially reading books of all shapes and sizes, fiction, nonfiction, popular, scholarly, new and old. This idea that reading books and success as members and leaders in the profession of arms go hand in hand. So we're launching this podcast for really for anyone who agrees with that sentiment, but we also hope to maybe convert some others along the way to this idea that reading, learning and warfighting are tightly linked together, and that an army that reads is an army better prepared to fight and to win. I'm one of two hosts for the new podcast and I'm joined today as I will be on all future episodes, by my co host, Theo Lipski. Theo, how's it going? [00:01:23] Speaker B: I'm doing great, John, and thank you so much for bringing me into this project. I think it's a wonderful sentiment and I couldn't believe in it more. I also have been a longtime listener of yours, so it's fun to be on the other side alongside you. [00:01:38] Speaker A: Well, we've had a number of conversations about this as we've been talking about getting the podcast launched. You've written a number of things that really sort of convinced me that there's probably no better co host to involve in this specific project than you. So super excited to have you on board. Just sort of a peek behind the curtains for listeners. Each episode is going to be structured roughly, similarly. Obviously we're going to talk about a wide range of books, as I mentioned, fiction and non fiction. The first one that we're talking about today is in fact a matter of fiction, new books, old books. The one that we're talking about today is an old book, but they're all going to follow roughly the same template. We're going to talk about the book, we're going to introduce it, tell you why we picked it, and then we're going to talk about the summary and kind of break it down into kind of three sections depending on the book, and we're going to extract lessons from each of those sections that we think are particularly noteworthy or the things that if you read this book, we would humbly submit that you should take away from it. So to get us kicked off, Theo, tell us about the book that you picked for us to discuss on the very first episode. [00:02:39] Speaker B: The book that we're going to talk about today is a novel from 1951 called the Cane Mutiny by an author named Herman Woak. We are now entering its 75th anniversary, so it's timely, if only for that reason, but it's also a classic. It tells the story of a crew aboard a minesweeper during World War II that has to contend with the pressures of war, but also the eternal pressures and challenges of serving in a military or any other great organization with a mission. [00:03:14] Speaker A: And the book is written by Herman Woak. What can you tell us about about the author? [00:03:19] Speaker B: Herman Wouk is a fascinating figure. He is no longer with us, but he died well into his hundreds, actually. He was a young kid from New York City, born to immigrants who were Jews from Eastern Europe who got his start professionally, actually writing comedy. He wrote for a couple comedy shows on the radio, most notably for one called the Fred Allen show, which would have been very popular back in the World War II era. Immediately pre war era would have been like a dominant podcast today. He was what you call a gag man, someone who hung out in the writers room producing the material that would make people laugh when delivered by others on the show. But when Pearl harbor occurred, he signed up for the draft for the Naval Reserve and got called up and went out to sea with the United States Navy aboard a minesweeper as an officer. And he had a lot of experiences while in the Navy, which we'll get to when we talk about the book. But he was not by any means a career officer. He got out and he continued the rest of his life to write fiction, but increasingly serious fiction about the hard lessons that he observed while in the Navy. And the Kane Mutiny is only perhaps the most famous of those books. There are several others that listeners may know, Winds of War, War and Remembrance. But the thing to know about Herman Woke is he was massively successful. He's not as well known today, but he was dominant in his time. The K Mutiny was the best selling novel in the United States since Gone with the Wind. It won the Pulitzer Prize. It was adopted into a major motion picture with Humphrey Bogart. His books Winds of War and War and Remembrance were adopted into a major television miniseries that was sort of a proto band of brothers. And he, though he only served in the Navy for a little bit. Said to his dying day that it was at the very core of his identity, even though he met success primarily as a writer. [00:05:29] Speaker A: Well, you have, you know, for listeners, we're recording this remotely. I'm looking at you sitting in your office with a big bookshelf full of books. Of all the books that you could have picked, this is the one that you picked for the very first episode. Why? [00:05:42] Speaker B: Oh, well, of course, there are a lot of candidates, but I'll tell you why. I have been reading a bit like I'm sure a lot of our listeners have been, and I rarely have encountered an illustration of the meaning of loyalty. It's one of the army values. We pay a lot of lip service to it. But it's hard to put a finger on why. Loyalty is, in and of itself, a worthy value. It seems that oftentimes loyalty is only good insofar as you're loyal to another value, insofar as you're loyal to an honest person or a courageous person. Loyalty for its own sake can be hard to explain. What I found in the Kain Mutiny is a striking illustration of why sometimes loyalty for loyalty's sake matters. And then the second reason is because it's a great work of fiction. It's very easy to make the case for reading nonfiction, the sort of commentary one encounters on the Modern War Institute website, the sort of history books one encounters in the classroom to young officers and soldiers. Fiction can be a little trickier. First of all, it's made up, so it seems somehow to be one degree at least, more removed from reality. But the advantages of fiction are many, and one of them is that it illustrates the internal transformation of people, if well written, better than most nonfiction does. And that's very important because we live and think inside of ourselves. So to truly understand what's going on within us and in our lives as we perceive it, sometimes fiction can be a better guide. And I've rarely encountered a depiction of what it's like for a young person to transform for just an everyday civilian into a commander than the example I encountered in the Cane Mutiny, via its protagonist, Willie Keith, whom we'll hear about. So those are two reasons why I figured, of all the books to start this podcast with, the Kane Mutiny was a good candidate, not to mention the fact that it's celebrating its 75th anniversary. [00:07:46] Speaker A: So it felt timely for listeners who scour the new releases of command reading lists, professional reading lists, service reading lists. You know, you feel like the responsible thing is to Put these on your own reading list and start working your way through them. And sometimes it feels like homework, even if it's the right thing to do, to read about these, to learn. This is not one of those cases. This is, you know, at the risk of. Of sounding hyperbolic, it's a page turner. It's a. It's a well crafted narrative that is a joy to read while also sort of reframing and informing the way we think about loyalty, leadership and. And the other traits that you mentioned. [00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you. You can see the comedy writer in Woke, even though it's not a comedy, because he has a very keen sense for what holds people's attention. And you look at the book from afar, it's got 500 pages, it looks kind of thick. It's about a dour subject, you know, the nature of loyalty. And you think, oh, boy, am I going to enjoy this. But once you crack it, I think within 50 pages, you realize you're watching or reading something like a thriller more so than you are reading something like a lecture. [00:08:56] Speaker A: All right, so let's get into the discussion before we sort of, as I mentioned to listeners, we're going to kind of break it down into three sections. We'll break the book down into three sections, but before we do, if you can give us kind of a synopsis of the summary of the book. [00:09:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So what happens at the Kane mutiny? Here's basically what happens. You follow a young man starting at the United States entry into World War II named Willie Keith. Willie Keith has grown up in a pretty comfortable environment. He's from a sort of silver spoon area of Long Island. He goes to Princeton, where he's a chummy campus guy. He's not a particularly martial figure. He has some artistic interests, but you get the sense his family, which dotes on him rather heavily, would like him to go into some conventional business field. But he gets called up for Naval Reserve service, and at first his desire is to pass the war, ideally on the periphery of the war. The Navy attracts him because the army is notorious for sending people into the mud in Europe. And over the course of the book, he goes through midshipman training. He becomes a Naval Reserve officer. He begins to appreciate military service in ways that he didn't expect. He almost falls in love with the camaraderie of it, the sense of purpose. But then he gets a new commander aboard the minesweeper, to which he's assigned, named Captain Queeg. He's sort of a legendary character in 20th century fiction. And Captain Quig is, to put it lightly, an imperfect commander. Willie and the rest of his crew, whom you meet, grow to hate Captain Queeg, and things come to a head with a mutiny. I would normally not say that for fear of spoiling the book, but it's in the title of the book, so I feel like I have license to. And they make some decisions in the mutiny for which they're later held responsible. And in the process of telling that story, Woke teaches us a lot about the limits of loyalty and the necessity of loyalty, and also about what it's like for one person to become somebody entirely different than the person he thought he was going to become at the outset of his adult life. [00:11:07] Speaker A: I think the mention of Captain Creek, even for people who haven't seen the movie or read the book, they know the name Captain Creek because it's sort of taken a place in. In kind of pop culture, at least within kind of the. The military professional pop culture, such as it is, as sort of a stand in. And it means certain things when you just say that name. Before we get into kind of the books, part one, maybe it's. Now is a good time to give kind of a quick rundown of some of the cast of characters you mentioned. Captain Kuig is the captain of the Mind Mind Sweeper. He relieves the captain that is originally there when Willie gets to the minesweeper. [00:11:41] Speaker B: Right, exactly. [00:11:42] Speaker A: Who is Captain De Vries? Willie Keith, you mentioned who's the protagonist of the book, but he encounters another, a number of other, mainly Navy officers throughout the book. I wonder if you can talk about a few of those who are important to understanding kind of the narrative in the plot. [00:11:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So I'd say the two that are worth dwelling on up front are Kieffer. Kieffer is somebody who comes from the world that Willie Keith comes from. He's a more senior officer, though still junior on the ship. And Kieffer has a liberal arts sensibility. He likes literature, he likes music. [00:12:22] Speaker A: Man of letters. [00:12:23] Speaker B: He's a man of letters. Exactly. And in fact, Kieffer is writing a novel you discover while on the cane, which is the minesweeper on which these folks are all serving. And for that reason, Kiefer is an attractive figure to Willie because he is something like a reminder of home. He's very witty. He's got a lot of good zingers. Some of that comedy writing comes out through the mouth of Kiefer, that Wok was practiced in. He also is irreverent and skeptical of the Navy in the way that a lot of folks who fancy themselves intelligent might be at times rightly skeptical of the apparent stiffness or silliness of military service. So when Willie Keith is feeling like the Navy doesn't make sense, like what he's being asked to do is stupid, like the people who have authority over him don't merit the authority that they enjoy, he finds a ready ally in Kiefer, who's. All the while you get the sense probably writing an absolutely eviscerating novel about his Navy experience on his bunk. And then you have Merrick. Lieutenant Merrick. Merrick is the second in charge of the minesweeper. And by the way, I want to issue a disclaimer for both of us up front. As two army officers, two land lubbers, we're probably going to screw up some of the naval vocabulary needed in order to speak about this minesweeper accurately. We just ask ahead of time the forgiveness of all of our listeners better versed in that vocabulary than we are. But Merrick is the second in charge of the vessel. He's the executive officer. Merrick is a fisherman by trade. He's not of the highfalutin background that Keith and Kiefer are both from. And he is competent, but less witty, less educated. And he's also less skeptical of the Navy than either Keith or Kiefer. And that becomes very important over the course of the book because Merrick becomes a sort of foil to Kiefer's skepticism. That comes to a head in the court martial. And we'll get there, I think. [00:14:36] Speaker A: All right, so let's jump into part one, which we're describing as sort of Life before. Captain Quig. Can you kick us off? [00:14:44] Speaker B: Yeah. So you meet Willie Keith as he's being dropped off for midshipman training, out of all places, Columbia University's campus on Morningside Heights in Manhattan. At the start of his journey to the Navy, he's being dropped off by his mother, which already sets the tone. This is a boy who has been mothered, and she's trying to give him some additional cash that, you know, the midshipmen whom he'll soon meet probably don't have in their pockets. So that he's comfortable in this novel and perhaps intimidating environment, and he's feeling a little bit sheepish about it. Then you learn that in between time, Willie Keith also has a habit of playing piano at clubs around town. In Manhattan, he's got a gift for funny songwriting. He can strike up a tune really quick. He's good at lampooning any given situation by writing a song about it and then performing it well. So he's got this socially attractive dimension, but not exactly the sort of personality who naturally goes to the position of attention or renders a salute. Maybe he's a little chubby, too. Maybe he's never touched a firearm or certainly never cleaned one for hours on end or, you know, worked on the grease of a spring for a machine gun. He gets dropped off and he's dumped into this much more democratic environment than anything he's used to at Princeton or on Long Island. There are folks from all walks of life there with him and talk all sorts of ways who don't have as quick an ability to reference great literature as he does, but he finds that he sort of likes them. And then all the while he also falls in love with this woman that he meets at a club who's from a lower class in Manhattan than he is from a rougher part of the city, from a family that's immigrated to the United States recently. And that love story persists over the course of the novel. We can get into that if we'd like, later. [00:16:39] Speaker A: But eventually, I think what's most important about that love story is that it exists throughout. And it's sort of his reflections on his relationship. On that relationship is really kind of his moral compass. And like, his reflections sort of like on that relationship. Because you said that he falls in love with her. I'm not sure he would have described it as love at that point until later in the story, but the way that he thinks of that relationship and his interactions with this other person very much sort of mirrors his own kind of personal development or his. His self identification. [00:17:09] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really good point, John. I misspoke. He doesn't fall in love with her. He decides to start dating her. And you get the idea at first that he likes her a lot, maybe more than he's willing to admit. But a lot of what's going on is primarily physical attraction in a way that was against the mores of the time, at least relative to maybe the time that we live in. But either way, a problem arises because he gets assigned out to the Pacific, to a minesweeper, which is pretty far away from Harlem in the Bronx, where Mae Nguyen, his love interest, lives. And he goes out to Pearl harbor to await the minesweeper, the USS Kane, to which he's assigned. And while at Pearl harbor, he's discovered by an admiral there as a piano player. And the admiral hosts regular social gatherings at his quarters and is in need of some entertainment. And quickly is charmed by Willy's piano playing and offers basically to redirect Willie to his own staff so that Willie can avoid wartime service and just spend the war playing piano. But at just around that time, Willie's father is dying and sends him a letter that reminds Willie of the morals with which his father raised him. Expresses some regret for not having made a more aggressive effort to inculcate those morals in Willie. And you get the sense that this letter moves Willie to. To instead decide to board the cane. And then we meet the USS Kane. And I don't know John about you, but it's amazing. This book was written in 1951, but the way that Willie boards the cane and the way he finds the cane reminded me of a lot of moments in my own army career. [00:19:03] Speaker A: Yeah, he. I mean, he describes it. You pulled this quote, so apologies for stepping on your call. But he describes it as a pile of junk in the last hours of decay manned by hoodlums, which is, you know, one of the most concise condemnations you can make of both a ship and the people aboard that ship. You mentioned that he's on a. On a minesweeper. And we should sort of describe that minesweeper. It is a. An otherwise obsolete destroyer that has been converted to minesweeping duties. So this is a ship that is old, that is not purpose built for the task that it's being. That it's being given. And throughout there's sort of this dynamic between the people who won the lottery that he commissioned with, who got assigned to aircraft carriers, because in the Pacific, this is an aircraft carrier battle, right. And the people who got assigned to other ships. At the bottom of that sort of totem pole is, are these sort of old, decrepit destroyers that have been kind of converted in. In a somewhat ad hoc fashion to minesweeper duty. So he doesn't like the ship, as you said, he doesn't necessarily like the people who are on the ship. And I think, you know, as you describe the sailors who are on it, a bit unkempt, not necessarily following. You know, in the army we would say, like, they're not the best representative of AR671. And that is really reflective of the commander who's in charge at the time, who basically doesn't. Really. Doesn't really mind all of those things. And that Commander Prior to Captain Kuig arriving is Captain DeVries. I wonder if you can kind of give just like, your initial thoughts when you read the description of him. He's only a. He's a character for a pretty minor a short part of this book. But he does make kind of a. An outsized impression on Willie. Keith. [00:20:48] Speaker B: Right. I think just like a lot of us have served under or with somebody with at least queer like qualities, so too have all of us probably encountered somebody like Captain DeVries. That is to say somebody who has a bit of a pot belly, who is awfully casual, who when he enters the room you might not guess as the commander because he's not even wearing his blouse but is loved by his soldiers or his sailors or his marines. And he's loved not only because he's chill or he is not a pain about what seemed to be nitpicking or ankle biting AR671 standards but because he also carries a lot of competence. He's good at his technical job just like Defreeze turns out to be a good handler of the cane when he's got the con. That said, there are things about De Vries that annoy Keith. Keith is kind of a rule follower. He's kind of square. Yeah, he's got a humorous side. Sometimes he likes to go down to clubs and write funny songs and perform them. But he is a Princeton boy. So De Vries lack of professionalism rubs Willy the wrong way. And I should say also like you noted, Willie wanted to go to an aircraft carrier. Instead he gets put on this rust bucket. And De Vries at first seems to confirm all of his worst suspicions about his situation. Oh, I've been put with some second rate officer. [00:22:25] Speaker A: The. I think there are two things that stand out in terms of Willy's initial impressions of De Vries. One of them is, as you mentioned, he comes from a background before he joined the Navy where you're expected to conform to a certain code. And this is a guy now who's not conforming to the code that he's led to expect will be in place on the ship when he. When he reports. The second thing that I think is pretty important is during the. You mentioned his. This sort of love interest that he develops during his time in training at Columbia University may win. And there's. There's a moment where he arrives late to a formation that he's expected to be at. He gets a number of demerits. He's basically told you're one demerit short. He's on 49 demerits. 50. You get kicked out and probably sent to the army, which means to the mud of Western Europe. He's told you've got one more demerit and you're kicked out. He manages to survive on 49 demerits throughout. So he's sort of developed this ability to just follow the rules, do as expected. And I think then he shows up to a place where suddenly that code that has gotten him this far in his brief Navy life is, is non existent on this new ship. [00:23:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that's actually a great point. Yeah. He nearly loses his opportunity to serve in the Navy owing to excess demerits. He learns how to deal with these hypocrisies from his fellow shipmate Kiefer. And there's this great moment early on when Kiefer, who's a whiz at decoding encrypted transmissions, which is a common task that requires cognitive load on the vessel and generally seems to be a whiz and is all the while writing this novel which is hilariously described as longer than Ulysses but shorter than War and Peace. He tells Willie, listen, you need to learn to work within the Navy as it is, not as you want it to be. And here's how the Navy is. In fact, he says, quote, the Navy is a master plan designed by geniuses for execution by idiots. [00:24:30] Speaker A: Yes, I love that. [00:24:31] Speaker B: Right? So Kiefer says, you need to learn to be an idiot, even if you don't think you're an idiot in order to survive the Navy. Because no self respecting American with the gifts that you have or I have would enter such a life. We're just here because we have to be here. Because it's wartime and peacetime, we would never do such thing. Now mind you, I'm basically a peacetime officer, so I'm thinking, geez, who am I if, if that's the way this works? But this is a speech that could be lifted from any garrison across the United States army right now. There is somewhere right now a couple lieutenants or maybe a couple staff sergeants sit down around the breakfast table saying this whole outfit only makes sense if you just assume that it's designed for people with two brain cells. And to credit, you know, it feels fresh even now. [00:25:25] Speaker A: And one of the things that I think, I guess the last thing that I want to say about this, Willy's initial impressions of when he arrives at the cane is that this is probably a pretty normal experience for a lot of brand new officers in the army or anybody newly to military service. Because in your training, what are you taught? You're taught the book. You're taught to expect things to be by the book. And so the first time you encounter leadership, particularly being assigned to a unit where leadership is not necessarily by the book. It can be disorienting, I think is probably the best way of describing it. And it's, you know, you have to figure out how to survive in this new environment. That is not what you were necessarily prepared for. That doesn't mean that that leadership is, you know, worse necessarily, as we'll see over time. But you're expected, you know, you're primed to expect a by the book organization. And when things aren't that way, it can be difficult to adapt. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Which of course brings us to the arrival of the by the book commander. Or at least at face value, the by the book commander. Captain Quig. [00:26:27] Speaker A: That's right. So the second part of the book that we're going to discuss is sailing under Captain Quig. We mentioned that when Willie first is assigned to the USS Kane, it's commanded by De Vries, Captain Devries, his time in command. Their time overlaps for a pretty brief period. In fact, he's moved on. He's relieved by Captain Krieg, who shows up. The relief is actually pretty perfunctory. It happens pretty quickly. I mean, it's just a few pages in the. This. My. My edition of the book is 536 pages long. And I mean in two pages, three pages, de Vries is gone and, you know, for. We don't have to talk about it necessarily. But the way he leaves, I quite like that scene when he left. And it speaks to the way his sailors responded to, to his leadership. Quig arrives immediately. Willie has a positive impression of him, right. Because this is the by the book commander that he was. He was sort of trained to expect. He thinks I know how to not only survive, but thrive under this style of leadership. That's the impression that everybody on the ship gets. It doesn't take long before cracks in that impression start to form. And the initial cracks for me, as I was reading took place when Willie Keith was not present. Not long after Cree takes command of the ship, he calls a meeting for all officers on the ship. I think there's only seven or eight officers. Minesweeper is not a large ship. Seven or eight officers, other than the captain on board, all relatively junior officers, sort of O3s and below. I believe he calls an all officers meeting in the boardroom. Willie Keith is the officer on deck at the time. He's got responsibility above. And so he's told, you're excused, you don't need to attend it. So he doesn't actually see this scene unfold, but on. Again, the. The version that I have is a. Is actually a UK publisher called Fontana. That's the reprint, second edition, I believe, in 1983, that they. That they published. And so for me, it's on page 146. And this sort of chapter typ title is called the New Order, which I think is very sort of foreboding. He calls the officers into the boardroom and they have this discussion. And in the matter of about two pages, suddenly you as the reader, your. Your sort of impression of queed changes. And you can see why it would for the officers under his command as well. He sits down in this meeting. You know, the. He's a new. He's a new commander. And so every officer is going to be sort of on edge a little bit, trying to make their best impression to, you know, the person who's going to have a great, you know, a great deal of, say, not only in, you know, how well life is aboard the ship, but also their evaluations. For somebody like Merrick, who wants to stay in the Navy after the war, that sort of thing matters a lot. So, you know, we've all been in this meeting, right, with your new commander the first time. And, you know, whether or not it's a new company commander meeting with his platoon leaders, battalion commander meeting with, you know, staff company commanders, we've all sort of had experience with that meeting. And it. It begins the way that you'd expect it to. He starts speaking. The officers are very quiet, just sitting there, you know, listening to what he has to say. There are several things that happen in this meeting that I think are very important. First, from the outset, he doesn't make eye contact with any of them. He looks away. And that's not to say that eye contact is required for effective leadership, but it certainly doesn't hurt. And it definitely sets the scene for what happens over the next couple of pages. As. As you know, this dialogue takes place between him. I should say it's not even between him and the officers. It's from him toward or at the officers. And he starts sort of basically laying out his command philosophy. Again, this is an experience that many people will have had when they either join a new unit or have a new commander come into the unit. And after sort of not. Not really making eye contact with him as he starts the next kind of red flag, I think for them is he starts talking about loyalty, right? When I asked you why you picked this book, you said because it's this sort of like incredibly powerful treatise on loyalty in both an abstract sense, but because it's a work of fiction in a more sort of relatable, sort of understandable sense. And he describes loyalty as loyalty upward and loyalty downward. And the takeaway that you get from it is that his loyalty to his subordinate officers will be very, it's, it's repaid in kind. It's very much determined by their loyalty to him. More importantly, his perceptions of their loyalty to him. Because the next thing that he goes on to talk about is that the Navy, in the Navy, he says there are four ways of doing things aboard a ship. He says the right way, the wrong way, the Navy way and my way. I want things on this ship done my way. That means it's his way. Everybody on there has, has spent their lives learning sort of a moral code. So right way and wrong way, you understand, you know, do do a job fully to completion, you know, that's right. Do sort of a half assed job, you know, that's wrong. The Navy way. They've all been trained by the Navy to know what the Navy way is. But my way, Captain Krieg's way is something they don't know yet. They're gonna have to figure that out. And by talking, by contextual discussion in terms of loyalty upward and loyalty downward, it suggests that if they don't do things his way, that's considered disloyal and they should not expect loyalty in return. This, this scene again, I think was, was it, it really sort of set the stage for this middle section of the book that leads, you know, that lead that covers sort of the ussa, USS Cain's operational involvement in the war up through the Typhoon and the mutiny, which we'll talk about a little bit later on. The absence of Willie Keith I think is really important because you feel this lag as the other officers are starting to have some reservations about Captain Creek. He does not immediately. He holds on to that initial impression of, hey, this guy, you know, his uniform looks great. He's, you know, he's got this command presence. I can, I can succeed under a command of a ship like this. I don't know if you had anything that you wanted to jump in with, but that to me was a defining sort of excerpt of this middle section of the book. [00:32:16] Speaker B: Oh, I think that you're right. We've all been in this meeting. But I've definitely also heard the perhaps verbatim speech that he gives right after he says the four ways of doing things. He kind of Confusingly says, now, I'm a book man, as anyone who knows me will tell you. I believe the book is there, this being Captain Quig speaking for a purpose, and everything in it has been put in for a purpose. When in doubt, remember, we do things on this ship by the book. You go buy the book and you'll get no argument from me. Man, that is not unlike a thing I said once or twice. That's another great thing about these books. They compel you to look in the mirror. But what we learn about Captain Kuig, as you alluded to just now so well, is that he has something a little bit off about him. He has these small metal balls that he spins in his hand as a nervous twitch. He really struggles to make eye contact. He's got a couple verbal tics. He says, mk a lot or okay, a lot. And as they, that is to say, the crew of the Cane takes on more and more tasks. You learn that Queeg has a couple of moral failings as well. There's an issue during an exercise wherein they're dragging targets. He ends up inadvertently, owing to his inattention on the deck, cutting the tow line for the targets they're towing, and then tries to cover it up. He runs aground and tries to cover it up. He also has something of a dependence on alcohol, and he tries to take some whiskey from the Navy back home with him while on leave and enlist an officer to help him with that task. And then covers it up. So he is not nearly as by the book as he says, and you begin to get a sense for why he put such an emphasis on upward and downward loyalty. That would only be necessary perhaps, if he were doing things that would make an officer choose between Captain Kuig in the book. And so you're given lots and lots of reasons to be skeptical of Captain Tweeg. That's not to mention his massive interpersonal failings. He's just a bit of a tyrant and a jerk. He seems to like punishment. He exacts punishment much more quickly than de Vries did. He likes putting people in the brig, or at least is very willing to. And he really calls into question the character of his officers when they disappoint him, rather than just issuing a technical or professional correction and then moving on. So the brilliance of the book is that you are in many ways brought into sympathy with the crew by Woak's telling of the story. You're given every reason alongside the crew to hate Queeg. And nobody is as quick to identify shortcomings as Kiefer the skeptic novelist who's typing away his novel while Quig is leading them across the periphery of the Pacific War. And what happens is Kieffer begins to develop the opinion that Quig is insane, that he has a mental illness, and that that disqualifies him for command. But Kiefer doesn't make this case directly to Cui. He doesn't bring this out in the open. Instead, he foments a resistance to Kuyg. And he presses the case of Quig's insanity to the second in charge of the vessel, Merrick. Remember, Merrick is this old, older gentleman. He's a fisherman by trade. He's from a more working class background. He has aspirations, as you said, John, to remain in the Navy. Whereas Kiefer and Keith think the Navy is a wartime gig, they can't wait to be done with, they can return to real careers. And Merrick is also loyal because he understands the second in charge of the vessel, the executive officer, is a proxy or a representative for the commander. So he's quite resistant to all. Resistant rather to all the trash talking that occurs of Queeg on the vessel quickly, until Kiefer presses the case successfully enough and just enough incidents occur that call into question Quig's fitness, that Merrick also begins to have doubts. [00:36:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you mentioned a couple of things. You highlighted some of the incidents that suggested that perhaps he was not a competent ship handler, that he was perhaps not a competent leader. He runs aground almost the first time that he's expected to maneuver the ship outside of a harbor. Because initially during this stage, you know, the most action they get is towing targets for other ships to engage in target practice in. He makes a mistake with that. He runs over a tow line and cuts the target loose. The reason that he did that was because he was busy berating a sailor who had his shirt untucked. Again, he's by the book. I expect a uniform standard to be upheld. So he not only calls this sailor there, but he calls the, the, the leader of his section there, an officer there, and the officer on deck, all of whom, and, and, and sort of berates all of them while the ship is spinning in a circle and goes over the tow line. The reason that the, the sailor who has the helm, who's, who's steering the ship at the time, doesn't say anything is because he's just been yelled at for opening his mouth when he wasn't spoken to by the captain. And so now he's put in this impossible position where he doesn't, you know, he doesn't know what to do. Both of those incidences, when the ship runs aground, when the, when he cuts the tow line. This is, I think, really, really important because no commander is perfect, right? Commanders will make mistakes. And, and as. As subordinate leaders, as soldiers, as service members within a unit with a commander who makes mistakes, that should be expected. But the way he handles that, completely refusing accountability for any one of those, trying to sort of manipulate systems and processes to. To absolve himself of any responsibility and put it all on his sailors, on his officers, who, again, he can, he routinely, repeatedly, sort of describes as disloyal. It's all their fault because they're not loyal. They're not following what I'm trying to do. They're not accepting the training that I'm trying to get them to get them up to snuff to fight this ship like it needs to be fought. We see him as an incompetent officer, and we see him as an officer who refuses to take responsibility. And I think that it's really important to distinguish between those two facts because we're all going to encounter leaders who maybe embody to some degree, both of those, and it's way easier to accept. And in fact, we have a professional obligation to accept and to continue to do our jobs to the best of our ability, even if our commanders make mistakes from time to time, it's so much more of a challenge when they refuse to take responsibility and put it on their subordinates. [00:39:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly right, John. I think the middle this book is an examination of the question that arises. Just what are you willing to tolerate before you have to dissent from the person who's occupying the position of command? And that debate is had out between Merrick and Kiefer and to Merrick, the executive officer, the second in charge, the kind of naturally loyal, more working man sailor, to Merrick, the bar is very high for when you're allowed to descend. It's not just one mistake. It's not even just one moral failing, because command is essential to the operation of the entire Navy. So you're only willing to toss it out in the most extreme circumstances. And they have. That is to say, Kieffer and Merrick have an argument that has stayed with me since I read the book wherein Kiefer, Tom Kiefer, is telling Merrick and speaking ill of the commander in front of a bunch of the other officers saying, this guy's crazy. Were all fools for serving under him. And Merrick Turns to Kiefer and says, listen, shut up with this talk about the captain being crazy. It's like running around in a powder magazine with a goddamn blowtorch, you understand? I'll swear to Christ I'll report to the captain any further statements you make along that line. Friendship on this point no longer means anything to me. That's the straight dope. Yeah, that's the sound of an executive officer trying to protect command. Understanding that loyalty and command are extremely fragile and you have to be very careful about when you pull the trigger on dissent. But is Merrick right or is Kiefer right? The reader doesn't know. And at this point in the novel, I'm thinking, I think I'm with Kiefer. Merrick is a little bit blind to the situation. [00:40:45] Speaker A: Although I will say, I think once you get to the end of the book or even further into the book, you start to look at Marek as this sort of indispensable character in the book on the ship, but also the sort of. The sort of indispensable person that you need in any highly functioning unit that, that, you know, when, when all the other officers start to grumble and they, they, you know, they're not satisfied serving under Krieg and they start to say things that are, you know, borderline insubordinate or blatantly insubordinate. And Merrick says, look, guys, I understand, but I'm not going to allow that in my presence. I don't want to. And it's just such an important role, and it's what a challenging position it's in. And a lot of young leaders in the army, in the Navy and the Air Force, in our. In our other sister services are going to be required to take on some of those challenges when there is maybe friction within a unit. And that second in command, that executive officer, that key staff member, or a first sergeant, for instance, I've seen it with a first sergeant who plays this role of glue that is vital to keeping a unit together. [00:41:45] Speaker B: Yes. In a book with kamikaze strikes and dangerous typhoons and amphibious landings, this is arguably the single bravest thing that's done by any character. [00:41:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:58] Speaker B: It's not to make light of the valor that one witnesses in combat, but even folks who have been in both situations will say that turning to your friends and peers and holding the line against what is socially attractive and what everybody else wants to do in the name of something abstract and at times deeply unpopular, like command authority, that takes bravery. And I can think of the folks in my career who have exhibited that and taught me that by their example and I think the world of them, even if I actually disagreed with them on the substance, because I recognize that they're transcending a social dynamic that most of us are too weak to. [00:42:38] Speaker A: So let's turn to what you sort of alluded to or hinted at, which is, you know, all of the, the subordinate officers on this, on this ship are seeing signs of, of things, you know, the, the obsession with these, the two small steel balls that he rolls sort of compulsively in his, in his hands. The overwhelmingly sort of irrationally irrational response to the disappearance of some fresh strawberries on the ship. You know, his sort of, his, these periods of. Queeg has these periods where he sort of, sort of, sort of exits from the public life of the ship and he just stays in his cabin sort of all day long and leaves the ships running to his subordinate officers. His, you know, all of these things they put together. Kiefer decides he must be insane and Merrick fights back against it. But eventually he gets Merrick on his right. Merrick comes around, Merrick comes around right to this, this sort of layman's diagnosis of insanity. And I think that that's really crucial because just saying we don't like this cabin because he's. Or this captain because he's harsh. We don't like this captain because he's making decisions that we wouldn't make. That's not enough to do what they plan to do. They need to, you know, they need something more, which is, hey, this captain is insane. Kiefer has started documenting all of these instances as proof of this, or rather Merrick has. Merrick, sorry, Merrick has, has done this and, and Kiefer, he, Kiefer and Merrick decide, let's take this and let's go to Admiral Halsey, right? The commander of the fleet. We're going to, you know, try to take action to make sure that we're not sent into life and death circumstances under a captain who could get us killed or at least is going to be irresponsible with our lives and with the ship. They get to the flagship, they're literally at the door at Halsey's door, about to knock when Kiefer decides, yeah, I [00:44:34] Speaker B: was gonna say it's Kiefer who chickens out. [00:44:37] Speaker A: Kiefer's the one and he, he's been the leader of this sort of borderline insurgency for quite some time, but he's the one that says we got to think twice about this he convinces Merrick, who was the one that was slow to come around to this, but has documented all of these things, has the sort of open and shut case, he thinks. And Kiefer says, we need to. We need to back down. Now is not the time. Let's not do this. Let's save our skins. And they get back in the gig, the sort of ship's tender go back to the cane and they stop short of what would at the time have been basically committing mutinous. [00:45:11] Speaker B: And this is a crucial point because this is when, as the reader, you begin to suspect the personality of Tom Keefer. At first he's very funny, he's very intelligent. He's got these great zingers about the nature of the Navy and military service. He's this smart, cool guy that you meet in your unit who behind closed doors does a great impression of the command and can tell you everything that's stupid about what's going on. But he also nudges the kind of stolid, loyal executive officer, Merrick, to keep a log of all these acts of insanity so as to make the case. When finally Merrick, who's at first skeptical of subverting the commander, comes around and they actually have to do the hard thing, which is go to the flag officer and say, our commander is not well, it is Kieffer who chickens out. It is Kiefer, the one who said all along that the commander is insane, who can't bring himself to say it in a way that actually matters. He can only say it in the war room or behind closed doors when he's palling around with friends. And it's Merrick who refuses to speak ill of the commander in front of the junior officers, who has the courage to actually go through with it in a way that would spare the Kane further bad command. But because they don't have unanimity at the flagship, because Kiefer says, I think this is a bad idea, they decide to retreat. And then the typhoon hits. John, do you want to quickly tell us what the deal is with this typhoon? [00:46:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So by this point, they're forward, right? They're no longer in Pearl Harbor. They've been forward for, for some time, engaging in. In mine sweeping activities. Notably, they have not discovered a single mine. They have not triggered a single mine. So the tasks that this ship exists to do, they haven't been doing. So there's a tedium about it. Even though they're forward deployed in this conflict zone, then they get sent with the fleet, I believe Heading south to support an invasion, an amphibious invasion. They get sent south when suddenly they start looking at the barometer and the readings are dropping and dropping and dropping. And at, at the time, right. Meteorology, it's still, you know, an imperfect science, but it was an even more imperfect science at the time. So it was difficult to understand what, where there was a typhoon, where it was heading. But they clearly realize we're heading into it. And they do end up in this typhoon. Right. And this is again, this is not an aircraft carrier. This is a relatively small ship and it's being tossed and turned and thrown off of its azimuth constantly. And they're in the middle of this and there's just sort of moment right where they're, they're on the ship, the captain is starting to behave what they consider to be irrationally, irresponsibly. And Merrick takes action. [00:47:52] Speaker B: That's right. Captain Kwieg freezes up. He seems to be handling the ship precisely in the worst way, given the circumstances. Merrick, who knows the seas well, both for having worked on them while a civilian and for having been in the Navy a bit, now decides to take over. It's important to flag. The book opens with an excerpt from Navy regulations at the time that says that's Article 184 of the Navy regulations that then govern the Navy. It is conceivable that the most unusual and unextraordinary circumstances may arise in which the relief from duty of a commanding officer by a subordinate becomes necessary. And Merrick makes the call that in the typhoon, Captain Quig needs to be relieved. And so Merrick says, sir, I am relieving you. I am now in command of the ship and everybody goes along with it. And Marek seems to do what's necessary to right the vessel and see it through the typhoon. Crucially, as they get out of the typhoon, they pass a sinking vessel. They pass an illustration of just the sort of mortal danger they were in. It wasn't imagined. This was a serious storm. But of course, Merrick seeds command of the ship back to Captain Quee at the end of the typhoon and he and the crew are charged with mutiny. They're very clear eyed about this. Captain Kwe says, you know, I'm going to take you to court basically over this. You have committed mutiny, this high sin of the U.S. navy. And Merrick says, I'm prepared to face the consequences. [00:49:27] Speaker A: Yeah, and can we, you know, I think just to give a little bit more color to this situation. The typhoon, they're in this Typhoon getting thrown about. They're. They're at risk of capsizing. Even the sailors who have been on this ship for years have this sense of sort of foreboding about, you know, this is a dangerous situation. The question becomes one of saving the ship and the lives of the sailors aboard or of continuing the mission. Right. And this is not a. This is not an abstract concept. It's something that is, you know, this is a decision that has come up in wartime, you know, throughout history. Right? And so America eventually makes the case that we don't even know if we're any longer with the fleet. We can't see them. Our radar is being washed out by the waves that are higher than our. Than our radars. We have no idea if we're with the fleet. Yes, we want to continue the mission, but we don't even know if we're heading in the right direction to do that. And so the safest, the more responsible thing to do is to live to fight another day. Preserve the ship, Preserve the lives of the sailors aboard the ship. And turn it and head, I believe it's into the wind. Turn it at 180 degrees. And so they do that importantly also Queeg. You know, and maybe you can, you can, you can describe this better than I could, but Quig is sort of, you said, as you said, paralyzed with fear. And that's what triggers Merrick to say, I'm invoking Article 184. He has. He has sort of grabbed onto an anchor, something in the, in the, in the wheelhouse, I believe. Apologies again. I'll double down on your apology to the, the sea power types. I know nothing about ships, how they're constructed, or the proper nomenclature, but he sort of grabbed onto something and is clearly sort of petrified with fear. Despite that, when Merrick tells him, I'm relieving you of command, he at least verbally fights it and tells him, no, you're not. You know, there's this argument that goes back, but he's. It's sort of a relatively unspirited one from Quig's. From Quigg's perspective, Merrick and. And Willie Keith are the only other officers in the room at the time. There's a sort of moment where Merrick turns to. To Willie and says, are you with me? Do you. Will you, you know, follow my commands instead of those of Quigs? Willie says, yes. Then there's one sailor who throughout the book has been a prime target for Quee throughout. Quig clearly has sort of an irrational hatred for him jumps on him for every sort of lapse in discipline, uniform issues, all sorts of different things. He's the only other one in the room. He also follows Merrick. At some point, Merrick calls the other officers into the room and tells them what has happened. And you get the impression that, at least in Quig's telling, that they only went along with it, like, you know, out of fear of. Of Merrick. So in his mind, it's Merrick, Willie and this other sailor who are the ones that deserve the punishment for what he claims is an. Is an illegal mutiny. [00:52:14] Speaker B: That's right. And there's actually this kind of amazing debate that occurs between Queeg and Merrick about who all is responsible. Kuig says, all of you are responsible. They're all supporting you in the moment. Whereas Marek says, nobody will hang but me, sir. This is my act, taken without anybody's advice under Article 184. And if I misapplied Article 184, I'll get hung for it. Meanwhile, all of you take my orders. There's nothing else you can do. I've taken command. So Merrick. Yeah. The guy in the meetings in the wardroom in Commerce Seas said, don't speak ill. The commander is the only one brave enough to defend the commander in a situation where otherwise would have been socially advantageous to throw in with his buddies and talk smack about the commander. When it comes time to actually save the ship, or at least do what they think saves the ship, he says, I'm the only one who's disloyal. If anybody faces the consequence, I am the mutineer, not them. In order to protect his own peers, which. It's just a really vivid display of what character might look like. But, of course, the typhoon passes, and crucially, you don't know whether or not the mutiny was necessary to save the ship. You have the impression that the mutiny was necessary to save the ship. But you cannot run the counterfactual. And it's not entirely obvious that if Quig had retained command, the ship would have sunk, maybe it wouldn't have. So you just have to live with that uncertainty. You have to live with that uncertainty, and that's very hard. And it all gets hashed out at the court martial, where Merrick is principally on the stand as the mutineer. Keith is with him, and he has a defense lawyer in the form of this character you meet late in the book named Barney Greenwald. What did you make of this, John? [00:54:09] Speaker A: Fascinating character. Yeah, he is that. That character becomes and Also a really important one for kind of recalibrating your mental framework about the way that you've processed and understood and kind of taken sides throughout the course of the book and including during this, the. The mutiny. So let's turn to kind of part three of the book, the court martial. [00:54:30] Speaker B: Right. So you're back in the United States. You're in San Francisco. It's San Francisco, right? [00:54:37] Speaker A: Yep, yep. [00:54:38] Speaker B: And a court marshal is being convened for some minor episode that nobody in the Navy was really tracking for a vessel nobody in the Navy was really tracking. But it needs to be handled because it's a mutiny and that's a serious offense. And what I like about this is it is exactly how things often feel. And these like, big bureaucracies, like the military, what seems so important to you, like your platoon, live fire, this, you know, logistical operation in the Baltic States, what dominates your entire life, Suddenly you're pulled out of that context and plopped into, say, Washington, D.C. or maybe a military academy, or maybe your major home installation from which you had been deployed. And you're reminded, wow, what was my entire life? What seemed so important? Important is just a footnote of a footnote in this bureaucracy. And everybody back home looks at what happened, thinks this is an open shut case. Like, there are hundreds of vessels in this typhoon, only two of them sunk. This commander was well qualified. He has this decent record. A lot of these guys who mutinied were reservists. It basically looks like a bunch of panicked reservists decided to upend command during a particularly tough storm that virtually everybody survived. We're going to make an example of these dudes. Then enters Barney Greenwald. So he is a pilot, right? By training initially, who you get the impression served with valor as a pilot, but got injured and so becomes a jag. He served on aircraft carriers. So he comes from the world that all of these officers, be they Kiefer or Keith, thinks is the sort of creme de la creme of the Navy. And he sees the file and it's like, I don't want to take this case. But he talks to Merrick and he talks to Kiefer and he gets the impression that maybe something is up. And then we go into the trial with Barney Greenwald having agreed to take the case as the defense for the mutineers aboard the Cane. And John, what did you make of the. [00:56:44] Speaker A: Of the. [00:56:44] Speaker B: Of the court Marshall? [00:56:47] Speaker A: Well, it was fantastic scene setting. Again, a testament to Woke's writing. He talks about the room that it takes place in and about the size of the flags, the size of the windows looking out into the over the bay of San Francisco. This sort of like the outside world where his world, you know, well, the world of Merrick and Keith inside this room feels so small and isolated from what's going on in the, in, in the rest of the world. It's, it's overpowering to them like this, this sort of visual sense of, of the room. You've got, I believe it was five officers that were on the court martial board. And then you've got his defense and the JAG who's operating as the prosecutor. And I gotta be honest, like, you know, I had read this book for the first time, I think 15 years ago, and then reread it again so that we could discuss it on, on this episode. When I read it the first time, I had no idea. I'd never seen the movie. I had no idea if they were going to be found guilty or not. And I could make a plausible case that either would have been a sensible conclusion to the book. So I went into the court martial scene not really knowing what was going to, what was going to happen. And so I mean that, that part, even though there were throughout the book there are pages long, sort of descriptions of combat, of sort of tricky situations. And this I seen, I think is probably one of the most intense. The scene that plays out in the [00:58:21] Speaker B: room for Marshall, I found it very intense and man, did I read this portion fast. The suspense that woke achieves in these scenes is impressive. I mean, this could be like a Lee Child book or a Tom Clancy book at this point. But you get the sense there's something even more going on. The question that matters, or comes to matter in the courtroom is whether or not Quig was insane. Because if he's found to have been insane, then there were grounds for his relief. But if he is not found to have been insane, there aren't grounds for his relief. And the thing about Quig, as is the case with so many difficult commanders or non commissioned officers, is that removed from the situation in which you worked with him, he presents as a pretty straightforward guy. So he gets interviewed by psychiatrists, he goes before these naval officers and he sounds like a competent, thorough, maybe a little bit difficult, but not that unreasonable guy. But Greenwald, the defense lawyer, turns out to be very good at his job. And what Greenwald does is he gets the testimony from the psychiatrists which say Quig is not insane, he is not a paranoid freak. He gets that testimony to inadvertently insult the Honor of the Navy. And there's this amazing scene wherein when the psychiatrist is brought in to testify on behalf of Captain Quee, the psychiatrist inadvertently says that all military personalities are a little insane, which is a great gag, because at this point, it's all pretty heavy. So you're not really expecting comedy. But remember, woke is a joke writer above all else. So it hits quite well. You have the psychiatrist saying, of course, the service picture is clear. Commander Quig subconsciously feels that he is disliked because he is wicked, stupid and personally insignificant. This guilt and hostility trace back to his infancy. So there's a bit of psychoanalysis which is already suspect in the Navy's book. And then Greenwald asked, you say his military career is a result of his disturbance? And then the psychiatrist responds, well, most military careers are the result of a psychiatric disturbance. At which point the panel of naval officers, which is judging Quig, say, wait, hold on a second. Maybe these psychiatrists or these psychoanalytic experts that are confirming whether or not Quig is insane are themselves suspect. And to prove the point, Greenwald then begins to quiz Quig on the decisions he made in some of the tense situations which we see over the course of the book, which culminates with his decision to chase down the thieves of some strawberries, which you mentioned earlier, John. And without getting too far into it, this is the single best moment, by the way, of the movie. Humphrey Bogart, who plays Queeg, performs this marvelously. Queeg has basically a nervous fit on the stand and starts babbling about all the different ways all the officers had been conniving to subvert his authority, and how it all came to a head with this bucket of strawberries. And everybody in the room realizes there's something wrong with this man, just like that. And ultimately, by virtue of this guy being a little off, he is an insult to the Navy, and we reject that insult to the Navy. We reject the explanation that this is the way the Navy has to be, which is what the psychiatrist said. And so the crew is exonerated. But then comes the coup de grace, the book. Because the crew celebrates their exoneration, their successful defense. At the nearby club, they get all their friends to show up. They've got a bottle or bottles of champagne, they're having a good time. [01:02:25] Speaker A: And incidentally, this party is paid for by Kiefer, who has finally sold his novel and got an advance for his novel. So he sold it, got a thousand dollar advance, I believe it was. And so he's paying for everything. Everybody's having a good Time he, above everybody, is having a good time, right, [01:02:40] Speaker B: because he didn't have to do the hard thing. But he still got to see this guy brought low, meaning Queeg brought low. And then Barney Greenwald shows up, and Barney Greenwald, the defense lawyer for the mutineers, is already drunk. You get the impression he's been drinking not because he's been celebrating, but because he feels guilty about the humiliation he brought to Captain Queeg, whom he regarded as an unfortunate figure, but probably an inevitable figure in any big organization, a peacetime naval officer who had been run ragged by peacetime and in wartime. He finally snaps, and he, that is to say, Barney Greenwald, resents that he had to make Queeg snap and humiliate him in order to get his clients off. So he shows up drunk, already having felt terrible about what he did and drinking in order to address those feelings, and he goes for Kiefer, and he says, I took this case. He interrupts their celebration to lecture them. He says, I took this case, Kiefer, not because I like you all, and not even because I think you're innocent. You're not innocent. You destroyed an imperfect man. But I took it because I thought the wrong guy was on trial. Merrick, the executive officer, is a good sailor who did everything he could to stay loyal to his commander and made a tough but ultimately incorrect call in an ambiguous situation. You, Kieffer, you are the true disloyal one. And what's worse, you're disloyal without guts. And I wish that I had the opportunity to prosecute you, because if I could have, I would have. And everybody is made to feel awful about this. Greenwald says there were so many opportunities for you to go to Queeg as a loyal but concerned crew and give constructive feedback. There's a moment early in the book where Quig basically asks for any feedback, and they're all too cowardly to provide it to his face. Cowardly may be a little strong word, but they were. They're disinclined to do the hard thing and provide feedback to their commander's face. He said, we came to you for help, and you denied it, and instead you allowed these disloyal attitudes to fester behind closed doors. And it all came to a head. Maybe if you had taken a stronger stance earlier, maybe if you had the courage to go to Admiral Halsey, you would have never ended up in that typhoon situation. But it's as much on you as it is on Captain Queeg that you ended up in that situation. And Shame on you. You all know that. You just refuse to admit it. And the party ends. He really takes the air out of the room. But nonetheless, they're acquitted. Quig disappears and Kiefer is made command. And in this brilliant epilogue to the book, it's not technically an epilogue, but it's functionally an epilogue. Kiefer really struggles in command. And that's one part, John, if you've got the patience for it. I wanted to highlight very quickly. It's on my page 460, but basically, I think it's chapter 38. Kiefer fails the test of command. While he's commanding the cane, a kamikaze strikes it. And rather than act with valor to help put out the fires and take control of the ship, he dives into the water. He takes lead an abandoning ship, and a bunch of his crew follows him. Willie Keith, the second in command, takes charge of the ship and acts valorously, which kind of keeps completes Willie Keith's transformation from the rich kid back home who wants to avoid war to a wartime leader of real substance. And afterwards, Kieffer and Keith are talking about what happened. Kieffer really being humiliated at this point, and Keith now taking command of the cane. And Kieffer's trying to describe to Willy what command is like, something he had been making fun of the entire time. We're now on page 463 in my book. 462 pages. He's been mocking command. He finally comes around. He says, willie, I gotta tell you something. He says, quote, it's the loneliest, most oppressive job in the whole world. It's a nightmare. Unless you're an ox. Meaning, unless you're an unthinking person who doesn't even have enough brain cells to think about the nature of your position. You're forever teetering along a tiny path of correct decisions and good luck that meanders through an infinite gloom of possible mistakes. Okay, maybe laying it on a little thick. Kiefer clearly still a novelist, but there's some truth in that. I mean, anybody who's occupied a serious author authority position, be it a senior NCO position or certainly a command position, knows that that's a pretty decent description, if a little thick, of what it's like. So woke completes the inversion. Kiefer the cynic turns into Kiefer, the most empathetic for command. Willie becomes the valorous officer. And you are left with, I think, a very lasting impression of just how complicated, nuanced, context, dependent, and human. Above all, human. The work of leadership Be it in peace or war, is in the military. [01:07:49] Speaker A: And I think the. If that is. And I think it's a inaccurate way of characterizing it as sort of an epilogue, the punctuation then to that epilogue is eventually Willie Keith is given command of the cane for, like, the war is over by this point. And so the question is, you know, whether or not the cane is going to be stuck forward and, you know, and just decommissioned there. And the sailors and. And officers are going to have to wait for weeks, months, or even longer for essentially for a ride home or if they'll be allowed to sail it back to the United States. They are allowed to. The way that that happens is also interesting. But they are allowed to. And Willie Keith is given command of the USS Kane. And so for that brief moment, and it is practically a moment in the. In the. In the overall story, Willie Keith's time in the Navy, when they leave the Pacific, they sail across the ocean, through the Panama Canal, up the east coast of the United States, back to, I believe it's New Jersey, where the ship is going to be decommissioned in. During that very brief episode, you also get the impression that even Willie develops a sense of. I don't want to call it remorse. It's complicated feelings, right? Remorse, but also maybe a bit of sympathy for Queeg, if not sympathy, certainly a bit of understanding because of exactly what Kiefer had told him is that this is a unique job. He's not in command of the ship during combat operations, but he's in command of the ship at this moment. And he feels isolated. He feels. He feels all sorts of things that he didn't when he was part of the team below the. The commander. And I think that that's a really. I think that's a really interesting way that WOKE decides to. To more or less end the story of the. Of the USS Kane. [01:09:32] Speaker B: Oh, it's great. And just to quote from that section, John, because I'm glad you mentioned that, I was actually prepared to skip over it. Willie is trying to explain the nature of the Kane service at its decommissioning. It didn't see a lot of action. It wasn't involved in the great battles. It existed as a minesweeper. It didn't do a ton of minesweeping except towards the very end of the war, of course. It's an important capability, and the Navy needs vessels like the Kane to exist. Just like there are hundreds of other tedious but obviously necessary jobs that offer the army or the Air Force, the Marines, potential that it might not use, but it needs to have in theory. [01:10:12] Speaker A: Yeah. When the, when the army or when a military service feels like a faceless machine and you just feel like an inconsequential cog, is sometimes really important to remember that there is no such thing as an inconsequential cog. Every cog is of consequence. And the second, third, tenth order effects of that cog fail right matter. So I think I know which scene you're going to describe. When he's talking to the sailors. Some of, some are very new to the cane, some of whom have been with it for the duration of the war. I love this. [01:10:38] Speaker B: That's right. And I read this passage because I think there are a lot of folks out there these days in the army, you know, maybe young officers listening, maybe cadets even or young non commissioned officers who are wondering what will be the meaning of my service? What is the future look like? What if I have a job that doesn't bring me to what feels like the decisive point for a given moment in history? Well, that is the experience of the cane. And Willie Keith, who by the way, at first was scared of combat, then held in high regard. But from a distance, those who saw combat says the hours we spent on the cane were hours of glory. They are all over. We'll scatter into the trains and buses now and most of us will go home, but we will remember the cane, the old ship in which we helped to win the war. Cane duty is the kind of duty that counts. I think that that is a very important message, that it's sometimes the least glamorous, most tedious, most indirectly productive work that the whole system depends on. And you can get the feeling sorry for yourself if you're charged with that work. So once in a while it's useful to have a reminder, especially from a voice like Herman Wilkes, which is so effective, to say the work that you're doing counts. And it's not often that you find a book that depicts that. Far more attractive are books and movies about the storming of D day, by the way, work which also of course counts. But what's remarkable about the cane mutiny is it doesn't just illustrate the meaning of loyalty, it also illustrates the meaning of work. All sorts of good work. [01:12:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's something that, you know, I, I joined the army before you did. I'm older than you. The, my first deployment was to Iraq during the surge. And I remember having conversations with others, particularly in non combat arms. You know, colleagues, peers, friends really, who were struggled with the Meaning of the, at the time, nine, probably 12, very likely 15 months in country in Iraq during this time, and coming back saying, what did I accomplish as a, say, military intelligence officer who just spent 15 months tracking IEDs? Did I save anybody's lives? Did I do anything? It became this sort of job that was routine. And you realize that, sure, that feels that way for any given place, but you start taking 1, 2, 3 of those things out and we start to not only fail tactically, we start to fail operationally and, and perhaps even even worse. So I, I, I loved that speech that he gave because I think that, you know, the book is about loyalty, but at the end it becomes about service as well in that moment. And so I thought it was very, very powerful. [01:13:26] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I am a peacetime officer, but I've been in a lot of units, some of which are held in high repute, that are charged with the task of deterrence, which is definitionally a task where you don't see the fruit of your labor because your task is to prevent things from happening. And I've been in a lot of motor pools, in the back of a lot of vehicles, talking with soldiers, junior officers, and wondering myself about whether or not what we were doing mattered because we weren't encountering evidence that it mattered. To the extent that we were succeeding, we would know only because things weren't happening. [01:13:59] Speaker A: Well, I think that's an excellent place to sort of end the discussion of the book and move on to kind of our final short segment where we're going to offer a few final thoughts. And we'll start with, I guess each of us kind of are going to try to pull a sort of fun fact that we, that we found while reading the book and doing the research for this episode. Why don't you go first? [01:14:21] Speaker B: There are a lot of fun facts. Again, this becomes a movie, it becomes a play, it stays on a lot of reading lists. But the thing that's interesting to me is that the typhoon is basically a real story. That's something that actually happened, woke also. He's able to write it so well because he lived through one aboard a minesweeper. And the typhoon that everyone points to as the inspiration for the typhoon one founds in the cane is what's called Typhoon Cobra. It occurred in December 1944, and 700 sailors were lost during this typhoon. I think three to four vessels went down, and that occurred because Admiral Halsey made a command decision to persist with refueling operations in the path of a typhoon. The forecasting at the Time, like you said earlier, wasn't accurate enough for him to know with certainty that he was in the path the typhoon. What's remarkable is that the commander that the, in the book, the crew of the Kane was going to go to, who is thought to be the brilliant commander, the high commander, Admiral Halsey, over their arguably insane commander, certainly their difficult commander, Captain Kuig, turned out to be in fact the commander in the real historical record that made the decision that put these vessels in the path of the typhoon. So the question that I'm left with is, listen, on the one hand, if you care narrowly about the preservation of your vessels and you want to optimize their chance of success, and you have strong reason to think that Admiral Halsey is sending you into the path of a fatal typhoon, the logical thing to do is to disregard the otherwise legal ethical order of Admiral Halsey. And mind you, Admiral Halsey again is making that order an uncertainty. But on the other hand, if we have a Navy in World War II of folks who disregard the orders of Admiral Halsey at will, we would have never won the war. And it perfectly illustrates the fundamental dilemma that Woke is describing in the book. Look, on the one hand, if in narrow sets of circumstances you feel that your judgment is better than that of your commander and you always heed it at the expense of good order and discipline, you might in the narrow sense preserve yourself or in a narrow set of circumstances, do the right thing. But if you universalize your behavior, you end up destroying the entire military and then you lose the wars that matter. And of course, we'd rather win World War II at the expense of, of some tragic casualties in a typhoon than lose World War II, but at least have a couple vessels survive. So I thought that historical parallel, it not only was interesting, but illustrated again the meaning of the book in a useful way. [01:16:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the, the best fiction is fiction that's grounded in reality, right? And even better fiction is fiction that incorporates the lived experience of the author, if they have it. And so, and that sort of speaks to my kind of fun fact that I discovered while reading about Herman Woke and preparing for this episode. He wrote two novels, as I think you mentioned them earlier. They came out in the late 60s, early 70s, or maybe both in the 70s. The winds of War and Warren remembrance, both of which were critically acclaimed. Warren remembrance contains one of the most emotionally laden descriptions of the Holocaust that I think has ever been probably written in a work of fiction, perhaps even non fiction. It is incredibly eloquent, powerful, but we almost didn't have that because, you know, I asked you before we started recording if you thought that, that Herman Wolk, the author, had modeled Kiefer on him. If there was some element of autobiographical quality to it, and I don't think there is, but he definitely injected his lived experience because Kiefer sells his novel that he's been writing in his off duty hours aboard the ship, he sells it to a publisher. Herman woke to the same thing. His first novel he wrote during off duty hours on his ship, sold it to a publisher. It was published in 1947. It was well received. His second novel, which he published, I believe, a year or two years later, was not well received. The publisher didn't like it. It was, you know, and it really gave him second thoughts about whether or not he should continue. When he was writing the Cane Mutiny, his wife actually told him, you know, if they don't like this one either, it's maybe, maybe you need to think of another line of work. [01:18:20] Speaker B: Work. Go back to. [01:18:22] Speaker A: If they had not now, the Cane Mutiny would go on to win the Pulitzer Prize for fiction. It would become a bestseller unexpectedly with the public and, you know, was made into not only a movie but also a Broadway play. If he had not achieved that success, we would not have had that incredibly vivid sort of description of the Holocaust, you know, two and a half decades later in War and Remembrance. So that is sort of my fun fact that I discovered that I did not know before we. We started preparing for this. [01:18:53] Speaker B: That's fascinating. [01:18:54] Speaker A: The last thing I think, before we move on to kind of our closing thoughts, the one thing that I want to. I want to kind of carve out a space. Since this is a podcast about reading about books, I want to kind of carve out a space for kind of a bonus read opportunity for either of us to, to kind of suggest. I'll go first with mine. This is, I think, an exit. This book is an exceptional example of fiction that is, is. Is loaded with lessons that can be applied by readers in their professional lives. We published at MWI a story in February by an army officer called Maneuver Under a Lying sky that basically examines what happens when all of your systems that rely on position, navigation and timing start lying to you. They start being spoofed, they start being jammed, and you realize how reliant you are on those. And you have to revert to analog systems, maps, compasses, terrain association. Instead of saying, we're, you know, three clicks north of phase line Alpha, we're at the big red barn at the second intersection And I think it's an exceptional example of the power of fiction to explore real world problems. And so if anybody's interested, I would highly recommend they go find it again. It's called Maneuver Under a Lying sky, written by James Torrance, a U.S. army officer. I don't know if you have a bonus read for this episode. [01:20:11] Speaker B: Yeah, briefly. And by the way, that sounds fantastic. A book that I've been flipping through of late. It's a bit of a deep dive, but you can get it at a lot of libraries, including the West Point library. It's called Mars and Minerva. World War I and the uses of the Higher Learning in America by Carol Gruber. What it talks about is the experience of trying to educate American soldiers in the AEF during World War I. What it finds is that a lot of the professors in American academia who would go on to stand up the great liberal arts curricula, be they at Columbia or Swarthmore or University of Chicago or elsewhere, were either directly or indirectly influenced by the United States Army's attempt to educate its soldiers, including figures like a professor named John Erskine, who launched the original literature and humanities course. It was then called the General Honors Course at Columbia, which is the forerunner of the Great Books movement. And what John Erskine found was that far from the military being hostile, the things like great books, deep reading of classic literature, or the liberal arts education, the military actually was a natural place for it. Soldiers were interested in reading the great works of literature and human history in order to understand their position. And that impression that John Erskine had of soldiers, he brought to Columbia, and it turned into one of the great courses in American higher education in the 20th century. It's a sentiment I like for a lot of reasons. It's historically interesting, but also I think it's a really optimistic comment on exactly the project that this podcast seeks to undertake, which is is to alert the US Military and those who think about national security or military affairs to the value of reading. Not just the articles of the day or the early Bird brief, all of which are good and important, but also books that have a timeless quality. It's not something one does at the expense of soldiering. It's something one does if you want to become a good, lethal, effective leader in the military, be you an enlisted soldier, a cadet, or an officer. [01:22:12] Speaker A: Well, I think then the only thing left to do is offer sort of our closing thoughts. And we thought we might do that by asking the question to ourselves of why this is going on your bookshelf or in your rucksack. [01:22:28] Speaker B: Certainly. Well, I think you already gave a bunch of good reasons that are true for me as well. And I alluded to some at the beginning. The Caine Mutiny is going on my bookshelf for a couple reasons. Reasons one, for those already mentioned, it's a rare and effective illustration of the value of loyalty. Two, it's a rare and effective illustration of the value of the work that is not glamorous, that doesn't make for high drama on the television or the computer or the phone screen, but is nonetheless essential if you want anything like a functioning military. And then three, it's just a great story. Perhaps above all, it's just a great story, well told and it's one that you can pull down from the shelf, open up and even in 2026, 75 years after its publication, you can still be entertained by. So that's remarkable. I was a late comer to this book, but I am probably going to be recommending it to folks, particularly young officers and sergeants heading into service in the military for a long time. How about you John? [01:23:26] Speaker A: Well, for me it's value and the reason why I would return to it is because it is an incredible exploration of the concept of loyalty, but also of other virtues related to military service, of honor, you know, selfless service and sacrifice, of integrity and how all of those sort of get stress tested in crucible moments. And I think that, you know, we all have some sort of moral compass, right? But it's not perfect and it's not unchangeable and it is very much, it can be influenced by our environments. And the nature of military service tends to be moving duty stations, moving units every two to three years and entering new environments. And if you want a way to kind of just check your moral compass each one of those times that you, that you make a move into a new environment, I think that there's almost no better guide than, than woak's book the Cane Mutiny. [01:24:25] Speaker B: I couldn't agree more, John. [01:24:27] Speaker A: Well, Theo, thank you very much. I actually really love this episode. I hope that we managed to keep choosing excellent books that are not only a joy to read, but a joy to talk about as well for future episodes and hope that listeners will have enjoyed this, maybe pick it up if they haven't yet and consider subscribing for what I hope to be more really fascinating, rewarding discussions about, about books and their connection to, to the profession of arms. [01:24:59] Speaker B: Absolutely. And thanks so much for inviting me to partake in this project. This is going to be great. If you enjoy this episode, we hope to continue delivering ones like them. There'll be again, fiction and non fiction, historical reads, present day reads, and it won't be strictly military books, but all of them will shed light on what it means to be a soldier, a sailor, a marriage, marine, airman, a national security professional. And again, thank you so much for joining us. [01:25:22] Speaker A: All right, until next time, this is the NWI Book Club. [01:25:32] Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the MWI Book Club. [01:25:35] Speaker A: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss future episodes. [01:25:40] Speaker B: And please take just a second and leave a rating or review, which really helps new listeners to find us. [01:25:47] Speaker A: And one last thing, what you heard in this episode are our own views and don't reflect those of West Point, the Army, or any other agency of the US Government. [01:25:55] Speaker B: Thanks again.